DNCC throws flags away.

[Texas Golfer]

http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/blog/g/954ab22f-5437-40ff-aa20-29ad7af10c75

The Obama camp is saying that they didn't throw the flags away but that they were stolen. But, being on the dock for more than a week in trash bags by a dumpster, kind of refutes that statement. Also, no police report of the alleged theft.

[Limnos]

And from the related blog.

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/06/the-recycled-flags-of-the-dncc/


That makes me sad and angry.

[The Banterer]

I'm betting it went down like this.

Staffer: Mr. Obama, what do you want us to do with these extra American flags?
Obama: Honey, you can call me Barack, what's your name?
Staffer: Umm...Jennifer, so what about the flags.
Obama: Oh, the flags. The tour bus is outta TP, so leave a few with me. Throw the rest away.
Staffer: Shouldn't we do something constructive with these, maybe save them for use at future rallies?
Obama: Woman, listen to me. I want them in the garbage, then make me a sandwich! No crusts on the bread.

[Texas Golfer]

I'm betting it went down like this.

Staffer: Mr. Obama, what do you want us to do with these extra American flags?
Obama: Honey, you can call me Barack, what's your name?
Staffer: Umm...Jennifer, so what about the flags.
Obama: Oh, the flags. The tour bus is outta TP, so leave a few with me. Throw the rest away.
Staffer: Shouldn't we do something constructive with these, maybe save them for use at future rallies?
Obama: Woman, listen to me. I want them in the garbage, then make me a sandwich! No crusts on the bread.

This is not the joking thread. The jokes belong on the bumper sticker thread.

This topic is very serious. It's a sensitive issue and hits close to home for many of us.

[The Banterer]

This is not the joking thread. The jokes belong on the bumper sticker thread.

This topic is very serious. It's a sensitive issue and hits close to home for many of us.

Look, this isn't a serious issue. Iraq is a serious issue, our current economic woes are very serious issues, the role that we will play in the world in the increasingly near future is a serious issue. Some [Edit] at the DNC throwing out the miniature American flags, is not a serious.

Before you even start, I understand that respecting the flag is important to many Americans, both those who hold pride in its ideals and those who have(or have family who have) courageously served beneath it. That said, this situation is not a serious. Someone made an error in judgment, someone who probably has very little(if anything) to do with Barack Obama or Joe Biden. There wasn't some mass desecration of flags, somebody just [edit] up, and to try and play this off as a serious political(or otherwise) issue, is offensive to the real issues, to the soldiers still risking their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan and to people who face grave uncertainty to their futures due to our nations current economic struggles.

When [edit] like this is a serious issue, then nothing is. Nobody should be talking about this. We should be talking about the best ways to get our economy back into shape, or what we need to do to take care of business in Iraq and Afghanistan so we can bring our fellow Americans home. That is almost the thing that [edit] me off the most about McCain's current campaign, is that it is all [edit]. I'm not saying Obama is much better, or that he's a better choice, but McCain's campaign has placed no focus on the [Edit] issues. All he does is talk about how Obama's not qualified, or how he has associated with sleazebags in the past, or how he hasn't offered up any specific plans for his policy.

[Edit], John, neither have you. Yeah, Obama's been preaching pie in the sky [edit], but you haven't even been doing anything but telling us that Obama is preaching pie in the sky [edit].

I try to enjoy politics, to get into what issues are being discussed, to play devil's advocate here and on BF, and to debate the general political shenanigans that go on, but when it comes down to it, almost everything being discussed is stupid as [edit].

People have become so conditioned to not giving a [edit] unless they can become terribly emotionally involved(see: ticked off), that the crap rises to the top in politics, because the real issues aren't discussed in a ridiculously emotional way. Economists don't get angry talking about the economy, because it hurts the discussion, and Generals don't rely on emotional appeal to discuss the best military strategies, so is it the only thing we get.

I've gone off on what could safely be described as a tangent(nearing rant territory), and I don't mean any of this as a personal attack on you TG, but this just really set me off. These flags don't matter. The won't affect our soldiers, and they sure as heck won't affect us; the only people they will affect are those paid to give speeches and muddle the line between truth and fabrication.

[FIJIFan]

These flags don't matter. The won't affect our soldiers, and they sure as hell won't affect us; the only people they will affect are those paid to give speeches and muddle the line between truth and fabrication.

I have to completely disagree with you. Any flag, no matter how big, small, material, and where it is displayed matters. How do you think our soldiers in Iraq feel about this? Do you think they want a commander-in-chief who may or may not have had anything to do with the disposal of our flag? Should any american look at this and say "oh, Obama and Joe didnt know about it, so it is OK?"

It doesnt matter who was involved or who knew about these flags. What matters is someone tossed them, and that someone needs to take a look around at the blogs and internet stories, and realize that they have affected many, many people with the decision that was made.

[atxtraveler]

This is the first I heard about it, but it is a serious issue. Many swing voters that Obama bin Biden need are red blooded Americans who have proudly served this flag, which represents their friends, family and heritage.

It will not change my opinion on who I am voting for, but if I was a soldier who risked my life for that flag, I certainly would put this on my radar.

[atxtraveler]

Just in case you need information regarding how to handle our country's national symbol:

http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html

No where in this is it listed that putting the flag in Hefty trash bags are the appropriate usage. For such a green conference, they could have at least recycled them.

§176. Respect for flag

No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.

(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
(b) The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise.
(c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.
(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker's desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.
(f) The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling.
(g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.
(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.

[Bexar Fan]

Banterer, I don't totally disagree with you and understand the relative importance you talk about regarding the war, the economy, and flag disposal. That said, politics is not a zero/sum game. One can like many things and dislike many things that candidates and their campaigns do and stand for.

I personally believe respect for the flag is an issue just as the war and the economy are issues. Obama has already been accused of not respecting the flag (lapel pin, Pledge of Allegiance, etc) and now this. To many Americans it is but one more example of a pattern. Veterans in particular will likely be offended. No candidate can disregard such a large group.

Of greater importance to me however, is your taking the Lord's name in vain in your rant. Please edit your comments and refrain from doing so again. Thanks.

[The Banterer]

I have to completely disagree with you. Any flag, no matter how big, small, material, and where it is displayed matters. How do you think our soldiers in Iraq feel about this? Do you think they want a commander-in-chief who may or may not have had anything to do with the disposal of our flag? Should any american look at this and say "oh, Obama and Joe didnt know about it, so it is OK?"

It doesnt matter who was involved or who knew about these flags. What matters is someone tossed them, and that someone needs to take a look around at the blogs and internet stories, and realize that they have affected many, many people with the decision that was made.

I would imagine that there are soldiers in Iraq who would prefer that they had not thrown the flags away, but that don't really care. Y'know, like they might care about the candidates ideas towards what should be done in Iraq and Afghanistan. Are soldiers aren't fighting for, or with, an American flag. Some of them may be fighting for the ideals it represents, some of them might not know why they're fighting, and many are fighting because they feel like their actions are helping to protect their country, not their country's flag. To state that our soldiers are would be to demean what they're doing, and liken them to trained animals rather patriotic Americans.

This hasn't had any real affect on anyone other those running for President, and perhaps those Republican supporters who will get one of these flags at a rally.

[Limnos]

TB- I want you to know that I appreciate your opinion and value it, but I did edit a couple of things that were offensive (i.e. use of Lord's name).

This is a good time for us all to remind ourselves that emotions can be involved in our views, but we need to express them here civilly and respect that we have differing opinions. The interactions that we have bring great value to the board and if we appreciate how these views mesh in conversation we can all enjoy the discussion of the topic and learn from each other.

[The Banterer]

This is the first I heard about it, but it is a serious issue. Many swing voters that Obama bin Biden need are red blooded Americans who have proudly served this flag, which represents their friends, family and heritage.

It will not change my opinion on who I am voting for, but if I was a soldier who risked my life for that flag, I certainly would put this on my radar.

Did you risk your life for the flag, or for what it stands for? Symbols are contextual, and when you give it value aside from what it represents, then you start to take away from its true value. Our flag could be anything, and I am confident that our soldiers would've served anyway, because it isn't the flag they're serving, but rather their country.

[The Banterer]

TB- I want you to know that I appreciate your opinion and value it, but I did edit a couple of things that were offensive (i.e. use of Lord's name).

This is a good time for us all to remind ourselves that emotions can be involved in our views, but we need to express them here civilly and respect that we have differing opinions. The interactions that we have bring great value to the board and if we appreciate how these views mesh in conversation we can all enjoy the discussion of the topic and learn from each other.

I just used the language that I did to communicate from frustration on the issue. I think "[edit]" with your name at the bottom works just as well. ;)

[Limnos]

TB- my father used to tell me of a story of a man in his unit that went back into a hot zone to recover a tattered old US flag in an area that they had to leave. He did not have to do this but that flag...a symbol of all things that he held dear....was that important to him. That man (about a year plus later) ultimately died from the wounds he received that day while retrieving that flag. He was always portrayed to me as a hero and if you are ever in Mountain View, CA, you can see that flag proudly displayed at the naval air base there. It is appropriately revered and on display for all to see.

Because of this, you can understand my emotional opinion indicated above in the second post.

[Limnos]

I just used the language that I did to communicate from frustration on the issue. I think "[edit]" with your name at the bottom works just as well.

I can appreciate frustration. ;) Feel free to talk me off the ledge if I get there. :D

[The Banterer]

Banterer, I don't totally disagree with you and understand the relative importance you talk about regarding the war, the economy, and flag disposal. That said, politics is not a zero/sum game. One can like many things and dislike many things that candidates and their campaigns do and stand for.

I personally believe respect for the flag is an issue just as the war and the economy are issues. Obama has already been accused of not respecting the flag (lapel pin, Pledge of Allegiance, etc) and now this. To many Americans it is but one more example of a pattern. Veterans in particular will likely be offended. No candidate can disregard such a large group.

Of greater importance to me however, is your taking the Lord's name in vain in your rant. Please edit your comments and refrain from doing so again. Thanks.

Sorry if I offended. It's rare for a political issue to really get me going(usually takes pick-up basketball to do so), and I got a little carried. Would've edited it myself if I had seen your message before Limnos.

At this point I think it's safe to say that I've basically abandoned the framework of standard American politics, so I don't really care about any potential political impact of this as the whole system has me drifting farther and farther towards apathy everyday.

However, I still maintain that the outrage for this is based on our need for outrage. Heck, maybe I'm the prime example of this, showing my outrage for the way politics is done(though I like to think it's genuine), but I digress. I think we get to the point where we can't discuss politics without being upset (and this applies to liberals just as much as it applies to conservatives), that we look for things to raise a raucous over, for politics.

I don't want to turn this into another thousand-word rant, so I'll leave it there.

[The Banterer]

TB- my father used to tell me of a story of a man in his unit that went back into a hot zone to recover a tattered old US flag in an area that they had to leave. He did not have to do this but that flag...a symbol of all things that he held dear....was that important to him. That man (about a year plus later) ultimately died from the wounds he received that day while retrieving that flag. He was always portrayed to me as a hero and if you are ever in Mountain View, CA, you can see that flag proudly displayed at the naval air base there. It is appropriately revered and on display for all to see.

Because of this, you can understand my emotional opinion indicated above in the second post.

I don't know why the man you speak of chose to risk his life for a flag, and I'm not going to pretend I do, but I would guess that the flag he went after was not an anonymous American flag to him.

I think the key thing to gain from your story isn't the heroic action of a man(though it is certainly worth recognition), but rather why he behaved as he did in going after the flag. Like I just conjectured, it's possible that he had an emotional attachment to that flag, or it's possible that he did it for his national pride.

In any case, I doubt that he did it for the flag, but rather for what the flag represents. I feel like I'm not being clear right now(maybe I need to write a long paper on this to see if that helps), but I'm not trying to diminish the flag, but rather express that the flag doesn't carry any meaning, but instead is injected with meaning by individuals.

[Texas Golfer]

Look, this isn't a serious issue. Iraq is a serious issue, our current economic woes are very serious issues, the role that we will play in the world in the increasingly near future is a serious issue. Some [edit] at the DNC throwing out the miniature American flags, is not a serious.

Before you even start, I understand that respecting the flag is important to many Americans, both those who hold pride in its ideals and those who have(or have family who have) courageously served beneath it. That said, this situation is not a serious. Someone made an error in judgment, someone who probably has very little(if anything) to do with Barack Obama or Joe Biden. There wasn't some mass desecration of flags, somebody just [edit] up, and to try and play this off as a serious political(or otherwise) issue, is offensive to the real issues, to the soldiers still risking their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan and to people who face grave uncertainty to their futures due to our nations current economic struggles.

When [edit] like this is a serious issue, then nothing is. Nobody should be talking about this. We should be talking about the best ways to get our economy back into shape, or what we need to do to take care of business in Iraq and Afghanistan so we can bring our fellow Americans home. That is almost the thing that [edit] me off the most about McCain's current campaign, is that it is all [edit]. I'm not saying Obama is much better, or that he's a better choice, but McCain's campaign has placed no focus on the [edit] issues. All he does is talk about how Obama's not qualified, or how he has associated with sleazebags in the past, or how he hasn't offered up any specific plans for his policy.

[Edit], John, neither have you. Yeah, Obama's been preaching pie in the sky [edit], but you haven't even been doing anything but telling us that Obama is preaching pie in the sky [edit].

I try to enjoy politics, to get into what issues are being discussed, to play devil's advocate here and on BF, and to debate the general political shenanigans that go on, but when it comes down to it, almost everything being discussed is stupid as heck.

People have become so conditioned to not giving a [edit] unless they can become terribly emotionally involved(see: [edit] off), that the crap rises to the top in politics, because the real issues aren't discussed in a ridiculously emotional way. Economists don't get angry talking about the economy, because it hurts the discussion, and Generals don't rely on emotional appeal to discuss the best military strategies, so is it the only thing we get.

I've gone off on what could safely be described as a tangent(nearing rant territory), and I don't mean any of this as a personal attack on you TG, but this just really set me off. These flags don't matter. The won't affect our soldiers, and they sure as heck won't affect us; the only people they will affect are those paid to give speeches and muddle the line between truth and fabrication.

This is a personal attack on me and it shows you know nothing of which you are talking about. You spout off about those great men and women in Iraq yet you have no idea of why they are there and has nothing to do with politics. It's about duty, honor, and country. And this flag, and everything it represents, is very important to each of us who have fought to preserve everything she stands for.

I watched some great men die trying to ensure she never hit the ground during combat. So don't tell me that it is merely a cloth on a stick!

Yes, someone in the Obama camp messed up. But so did Obama when he tried to pass it off as a theft.

[Texas Golfer]

I would imagine that there are soldiers in Iraq who would prefer that they had not thrown the flags away, but that don't really care. Y'know, like they might care about the candidates ideas towards what should be done in Iraq and Afghanistan. Are soldiers aren't fighting for, or with, an American flag. Some of them may be fighting for the ideals it represents, some of them might not know why they're fighting, and many are fighting because they feel like their actions are helping to protect their country, not their country's flag. To state that our soldiers are would be to demean what they're doing, and liken them to trained animals rather patriotic Americans.

This hasn't had any real affect on anyone other those running for President, and perhaps those Republican supporters who will get one of these flags at a rally.

When you don't know what you are talking about, perhaps you should refrain from saying anything at all. Our soldiers wear the American flag on their sleeves. They know what it represents even if you don't.

I'll talk politics with you all you want and you can continue to try and defend some of Obama's indefensible associations, but please don't continue to defend their actions and your stupid remarks. This is a very sensitive issue whether you know it or not.

[Texas Golfer]

Did you risk your life for the flag, or for what it stands for? Symbols are contextual, and when you give it value aside from what it represents, then you start to take away from its true value. Our flag could be anything, and I am confident that our soldiers would've served anyway, because it isn't the flag they're serving, but rather their country.

Tell this to those who died defending her. Yes, I refer to Old Glory as a her. Many of us did and still do. But you can't tell them because they are no longer with us. Maybe you can tell the parent or sibling of one of those who died to ensure she never touched the ground.

Yes, some join the military for the pay and the benefits. But, for me and for those with whom I served, it was more than a job. It was a responsibility. It was our duty.

[Bexar Fan]

But, for me and for those with whom I served, it was more than a job. It was a responsibility. It was our duty.
....and an honor.

[Texas Golfer]

....and an honor.

Yes, sir, as it is being your little brother.

[atxtraveler]

Did you risk your life for the flag, or for what it stands for? Symbols are contextual, and when you give it value aside from what it represents, then you start to take away from its true value. Our flag could be anything, and I am confident that our soldiers would've served anyway, because it isn't the flag they're serving, but rather their country.

I believe you misread my statement. I said if I were a soldier who risked my life to protect the flag...

If you want to know the truth and with full disclosure, I was disqualified from a congressional nomination to serve by attending the United States Air Force Academy. My father is currently still in service to this country, as an active member of the United States Air Force, and both of my parents served for over 30 years in both civil law enforcement and military positions.

I am making the assumption you have not served or being around someone that has served, as I can tell you a high 90% or more of soldiers would die to protect their flag. The ones that wouldn't are currently hiding out in Canada as "conscientious objectors".

[FIJIFan]

. The ones that wouldn't are currently hiding out in Canada as "conscientious objectors".

Extradite 'em and hang 'em.

[Limnos]

TG- you know my stance on this but lets soften up the "stupid remarks" barb please. TB has a different perspective and in discussions such as these we are not going to change minds. There is some emotion flowing now and I respect both sides of it, but I want to make sure this discussion remains civil for all of us. I respect your service and passion 100% and you know that. I would be proud and honored to stand at your side if ever called or needed.

I'm doing my best here to calm us all. I'm usually on the stoked up side of this one. I see the flag as much more than fabric on a pole.

[The Banterer]

I believe you misread my statement. I said if I were a soldier who risked my life to protect the flag...

If you want to know the truth and with full disclosure, I was disqualified from a congressional nomination to serve by attending the United States Air Force Academy. My father is currently still in service to this country, as an active member of the United States Air Force, and both of my parents served for over 30 years in both civil law enforcement and military positions.

I am making the assumption you have not served or being around someone that has served, as I can tell you a high 90% or more of soldiers would die to protect their flag. The ones that wouldn't are currently hiding out in Canada as "conscientious objectors".

Rereading my post that you responded to, I think I was very unclear and it came off as rude. I wasn't trying to question whether you had served or not, but was rather trying to(and failing to) ask why someone serves.

My father served, my grandfather served, and I feel very confident in saying that neither of them would die to protect a flag. Maybe some would, and I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but a flag is a piece of material. What it represents is what is important.

[FIJIFan]

but a flag is a piece of material. What it represents is what is important.

I dont really know you, so this may not apply to you...but, take the statement above--what if I said to you:
"but a Bible is a book. What is represents is what is important."
If we were talking about Bibles in a trash bag instead of flags would you feel the same way?

[The Banterer]

When you don't know what you are talking about, perhaps you should refrain from saying anything at all. Our soldiers wear the American flag on their sleeves. They know what it represents even if you don't.

I'll talk politics with you all you want and you can continue to try and defend some of Obama's indefensible associations, but please don't continue to defend their actions and your stupid remarks. This is a very sensitive issue whether you know it or not.

Look, if you want to get nasty, I'll play that game, but I'd rather try to pursue a meaningful debate. You're basically responding to my generic position on the other side of the debate, and not to what I was saying, which makes me think that you probably had your mind made up about my post before you even read it.

I understand that my long post, with all the ****s(intentional asteriks here) or [edit]'s could come off as a personal attack, which is why I tried to explain at the end why it wasn't. I even positive repped you on this thread, to try and ensure that you didn't think I was attacking you. That post spiraled into a late-night(and probably ill-advised given the context) commentary on the political system as it is now.

I never said that the American flag didn't mean anything to those serving our country, just that I doubt the DNC throwing away a bunch of leftover small flags away, would get their blood boiling like you think it will. There is a huge difference between defending your flag in battle and having some ***** throw away some flags at a convention, so don't try to pretend they're the same.

I feel like you are discounting the abilities of our soldiers to have different opiniona than yours based on your anecdotal experiences(which I admittedly don't have). You aren't better American than me because you served, and I'm not a better American than you because I haven't, so please don't try to tell me that I can't have an opinion because I took a different route in life than you.

Like I've said before, none of this is meant as a personal attack. If you want to go that route, then I've got a Mead spiral full of yo' momma jokes, and it isn't going to end well for you. :)

[The Banterer]

I dont really know you, so this may not apply to you...but, take the statement above--what if I said to you:
"but a Bible is a book. What is represents is what is important."
If we were talking about Bibles in a trash bag instead of flags would you feel the same way?

Absolutely, and my Father(on Earth that is) who is a better, more dedicated Christian than I will ever be, would absolutely agree with this as well. What is a bible? Paper, binding, backing of some sort, ink on the paper. It is worth absolutely nothing without an understanding of it, and the spiritual context that we can give it's teachings and stories.

[Texas Golfer]

TG- you know my stance on this but lets soften up the "stupid remarks" barb please. TB has a different perspective and in discussions such as these we are not going to change minds. There is some emotion flowing now and I respect both sides of it, but I want to make sure this discussion remains civil for all of us. I respect your service and passion 100% and you know that. I would be proud and honored to stand at your side if ever called or needed.

I'm doing my best here to calm us all. I'm usually on the stoked up side of this one. I see the flag as much more than fabric on a pole.

As many of you know, this is a very sensitive subject for me. I've lost many good friends keeping her upright and have schrapnel in my back today doing the same.

But I do apologize for letting that emotion take control.

[atxtraveler]

I guarentee you that most voting veterans think of the flag in the opposite position as your family, as most religious people would feel about the Bible. The symbolism alone of throwing away the excess patriotism of those flags and not using them for a different purpose says he will lose voters in the following areas:

Veterans
Patriots
Greenies.

[FIJIFan]

I guarentee you that most voting veterans think of the flag in the opposite position as your family, as most religious people would feel about the Bible. The symbolism alone of throwing away the excess patriotism of those flags and not using them for a different purpose says he will lose voters in the following areas:

Greenies.

Al Gore types? Not familiar with the word.

[Bexar Fan]

Recyclers.

[FIJIFan]

Recyclers.

Duh.

I think it is time to go home...I am losing my mind.

Thanks Bexar!

[The Banterer]

I guarentee you that most voting veterans think of the flag in the opposite position as your family, as most religious people would feel about the Bible. The symbolism alone of throwing away the excess patriotism of those flags and not using them for a different purpose says he will lose voters in the following areas:

Veterans
Patriots
Greenies.

I can totally see the environmentalists being up in arms over it. I guess at this point, we've reached an impasse where neither side can really understand the other, and we'll have to agree to disagree.

Except using the term patriot in that post. That bugs be because you're basically saying that I don't love or have any pride in my country, which would be an inaccurate assessment of my. I don't have pride however, in objects. Maybe if those objects can be used as a symbol for something I do have pride in(like the flag, or family heirlooms), then yes, they will be important to me, but not without the emotions I feel behind it.

I hope that helps explain my position, but if it doesn't, then I officially call for a truce as I don't think I can really say anymore to expand upon my position.

[atxtraveler]

I can totally see the environmentalists being up in arms over it. I guess at this point, we've reached an impasse where neither side can really understand the other, and we'll have to agree to disagree.

Except using the term patriot in that post. That bugs be because you're basically saying that I don't love or have any pride in my country, which would be an inaccurate assessment of my. I don't have pride however, in objects. Maybe if those objects can be used as a symbol for something I do have pride in(like the flag, or family heirlooms), then yes, they will be important to me, but not without the emotions I feel behind it.

I hope that helps explain my position, but if it doesn't, then I officially call for a truce as I don't think I can really say anymore to expand upon my position.

I do understand the rationale behind your argument, but I disagree with it. If someone chose to burn a flag in my presence, I would likely be in jail the next morning for assault. If someone were to hold a Hitler rally and burn books, I likely would be in the hospital where a kindly doctor would be removing my foot from the posterior of a guy with a lighter.

To say that a US flag is merely an object is offensive to me. It lets me know that the person with that opinion does not value where it has flown, or who it has flown for...

[The Banterer]

I do understand the rationale behind your argument, but I disagree with it. If someone chose to burn a flag in my presence, I would likely be in jail the next morning for assault. If someone were to hold a Hitler rally and burn books, I likely would be in the hospital where a kindly doctor would be removing my foot from the posterior of a guy with a lighter.

To say that a US flag is merely an object is offensive to me. It lets me know that the person with that opinion does not value where it has flown, or who it has flown for...

And I struggle to understand how you argue that the flag is America. It's like saying that someone's clothes are more important than their personality.

What is the flag if not an object? It holds no meaning by itself. Would a swastika have the same stigma they have today had the National Socialist's not done horrible things while flying it? I'm not saying that a flag can't have meaning, but it cannot have it intrinsically. We must project meaning upon it, not the other way around. It is in this way that I assert that the values and ideas of the nation, those which give the flag life, are much more important than the flag itself.

Let me ask you this. Would you be more offended to witness someone burning a flag, or to witness them libel the United States with terrible lies?

[Texas Golfer]

And I struggle to understand how you argue that the flag is America. It's like saying that someone's clothes are more important than their personality.

What is the flag if not an object? It holds no meaning by itself. Would a swastika have the same stigma they have today had the National Socialist's not done horrible things while flying it? I'm not saying that a flag can't have meaning, but it cannot have it intrinsically. We must project meaning upon it, not the other way around. It is in this way that I assert that the values and ideas of the nation, those which give the flag life, are much more important than the flag itself.

Let me ask you this. Would you be more offended to witness someone burning a flag, or to witness them libel the United States with terrible lies?

I would be more offended by the burning of the flag. It's up to the recipient of those lies to chose whether or not to believe them.

It's clear that you do not understand and our continued attempts to explain it to you are not being accepted. So let's just leave it at that.

We've told you that we're offended by the DNCC's act and you are only offending us more by trying to defend it. I try not to offend anyone on these boards but you, apparently, don't have a problem doing it.

I said that about as nicely as I could, Limnos.

[canuckbear]

As many of you know, this is a very sensitive subject for me. I've lost many good friends keeping her upright and have schrapnel in my back today doing the same.

But I do apologize for letting that emotion take control.


Texas Golfer,

I would like to meet you in person some day and shake your hand. Thank you for what you and all our militray do for this country.

[Limnos]

TG- You know how I feel about this. If someone burns a flag near me there will be blood. ;)

[Bexar Fan]

And I struggle to understand how you argue that the flag is America. It's like saying that someone's clothes are more important than their personality.

What is the flag if not an object? It holds no meaning by itself. Would a swastika have the same stigma they have today had the National Socialist's not done horrible things while flying it? I'm not saying that a flag can't have meaning, but it cannot have it intrinsically. We must project meaning upon it, not the other way around. It is in this way that I assert that the values and ideas of the nation, those which give the flag life, are much more important than the flag itself.

Let me ask you this. Would you be more offended to witness someone burning a flag, or to witness them libel the United States with terrible lies?
Nobody is saying that the flag is the US. Just that it has more meaning than its threadcount and dye. You continue to intellectualize this discussion that is far more than that to many of us. We understand and may even agree with your shallow intellectual argument. However you seem to be incapable of understanding an enhanced perspective. If there were no emotions involved there would be no point to a flag burning. It would simply be a colored cloth burning. Some of our experiences have enriched our reverence for the flag AND all it represents, giving IT meaning.

[The Banterer]

I would be more offended by the burning of the flag. It's up to the recipient of those lies to chose whether or not to believe them.

It's clear that you do not understand and our continued attempts to explain it to you are not being accepted. So let's just leave it at that.

We've told you that we're offended by the DNCC's act and you are only offending us more by trying to defend it. I try not to offend anyone on these boards but you, apparently, don't have a problem doing it.

I said that about as nicely as I could, Limnos.

I'm not trying to offend, or even really defend the DNC's actions, just explain my point of view. Honestly, I don't think you've given it any actual consideratio as much as you've just dismissed it, which is fine, that's your choice to make.

We obviously share very different perspectives about the flag, but there's really no need for you to try and claim the absolute moral high ground on an issue, where there isn't a definate standard, unless you believe that your military service has made you a better American than me.

[The Banterer]

Nobody is saying that the flag is the US. Just that it has more meaning than its threadcount and dye. You continue to intellectualize this discussion that is far more than that to many of us. We understand and may even agree with your shallow intellectual argument. However you seem to be incapable of understanding an enhanced perspective. If there were no emotions involved there would be no point to a flag burning. It would simply be a colored cloth burning. Some of our experiences have enriched our reverence for the flag AND all it represents, giving IT meaning.

I guess I find flag-burning less offensive than libel because it communicates very little. It's somehow gone under the radar when I mentioned that I do feel some emotion in our flag, but I guess that when other's disrespect the flag it doesn't bother me that much because they obviously don't feel the same way as I do about their flag, and the way I feel about the flag isn't part of the flag, it can't be touched by fire.

[Texas Golfer]

Texas Golfer,

I would like to meet you in person some day and shake your hand. Thank you for what you and all our militray do for this country.

Anytime. It was my honor to have done so.

[Texas Golfer]

I'm not trying to offend, or even really defend the DNC's actions, just explain my point of view. Honestly, I don't think you've given it any actual consideratio as much as you've just dismissed it, which is fine, that's your choice to make.

We obviously share very different perspectives about the flag, but there's really no need for you to try and claim the absolute moral high ground on an issue, where there isn't a definate standard, unless you believe that your military service has made you a better American than me.

You keep saying you don't mean to offend, yet, here you are, offending again...and again...and again.

Like "I didn't mean to kill him, your honor." would be a good defense in court.

You did offend me and, apparently, many others on this board. May I suggest you merely drop it unless offending us really is your intent.

[Texas Golfer]

I guess I find flag-burning less offensive than libel because it communicates very little.

Apparently, you've never heard the expression, "Actions speak louder than words."

[The Banterer]

Apparently, you've never heard the expression, "Actions speak louder than words."

Apparently you've never heard the expression "the pen is mightier than the sword", which I think is more apt to the context of flag burning versus libel(which I know doesn't use a pen, but let's throw in slander too). Regardless, expressions are meaningless.

I didn't realize that your care so much about what I think that my opinions, which I haven't even been forceful in expressing, are enough to offend you. This is the point where we have fundamentally different philosophies about life, and nothing that is said can change that.

TG, I'm sure that we'll be doing this a lot more between now and November(and beyond), so I'd appreciate if you could try to be less personal in the discussions. I try to focus as much on the issue as possible, because I think that it leads to the best debate.

If you don't want to, then that's fine, but the point of discussion shouldn't be to make your opponent feel uncomfortable, which is seems like you are trying to do, because it is very distracting to the topic at hand.

I realize that the way I try to go about probably comes off as totally elitist and stuck up, but I assure you that those aren't my intentions. I just honestly believe that the best way to argue is to make it as impersonal as possible.

[Texas Golfer]

Apparently you've never heard the expression "the pen is mightier than the sword", which I think is more apt to the context of flag burning versus libel(which I know doesn't use a pen, but let's throw in slander too). Regardless, expressions are meaningless.

I didn't realize that your care so much about what I think that my opinions, which I haven't even been forceful in expressing, are enough to offend you. This is the point where we have fundamentally different philosophies about life, and nothing that is said can change that.

TG, I'm sure that we'll be doing this a lot more between now and November(and beyond), so I'd appreciate if you could try to be less personal in the discussions. I try to focus as much on the issue as possible, because I think that it leads to the best debate.

If you don't want to, then that's fine, but the point of discussion shouldn't be to make your opponent feel uncomfortable, which is seems like you are trying to do, because it is very distracting to the topic at hand.

I realize that the way I try to go about probably comes off as totally elitist and stuck up, but I assure you that those aren't my intentions. I just honestly believe that the best way to argue is to make it as impersonal as possible.

The pen may be mightier than the sword but, if you use a pen and write something on the flag, I'll be just as angry as if you used a sword on her.

I don't mind debating issues between the candidates. But some issues strike very close to home for some and are very sensitive. I, repeatedly, have asked you to let this thread die because you've offended several of us by continuing it. You, clearly, have chosen to ignore our offense and your insensitivity for "fun" and "keeping things lively".

You keep telling us that what you are doing are not your intentions but, when we tell you that, whether you intend to offend us or not, you are offending us on this issue but you continue. That tells me that it is exactly what you are intending to do.

[The Banterer]

The pen may be mightier than the sword but, if you use a pen and write something on the flag, I'll be just as angry as if you used a sword on her.

I don't mind debating issues between the candidates. But some issues strike very close to home for some and are very sensitive. I, repeatedly, have asked you to let this thread die because you've offended several of us by continuing it. You, clearly, have chosen to ignore our offense and your insensitivity for "fun" and "keeping things lively".

You keep telling us that what you are doing are not your intentions but, when we tell you that, whether you intend to offend us or not, you are offending us on this issue but you continue. That tells me that it is exactly what you are intending to do.

Look, if having someone disagree with you on an issue would offend you, perhaps you should think twice about starting a thread, about that issue, on a public message board.

[Texas Golfer]

Look, if having someone disagree with you on an issue would offend you, perhaps you should think twice about starting a thread, about that issue, on a public message board.

I made my point. You made yours. The issue now is no longer about Old Glory. You've made it into your insensitivity and lies about not wanting to offend.

[Limnos]

We've all had our say at this point. I'm going to lock this one up until later tonight to allow everyone to take a deep breath.

[atxtraveler]

We've all had our say at this point. I'm going to lock this one up until later tonight to allow everyone to take a deep breath.

I think the thread needs to continue to be locked permanently. Both sides have said their peace, and everything from this point on will merely constitute personal attacks rather than healthy debate.